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Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? (1 viewing) (1) Guest
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TOPIC: Should Grail Knights be Ld 9?
possumman (User)
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  #121824
Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
So I was playing yesterday, and it (sort of) suddenly struck me that for a Grail Knight, Ld 8 is fairly pathetic.
Errants are 7, Realm and Questing are 8, surely Grails should be 9?
To me, Ld 8 represents any decent troop from any average Ld army. Knights of the Realm fit perfectly into that category. High Elf spearmen. Things like that - slightly above par troops who can hold their own in a fight.
But that's not what Grail Knights are - they're elite, powerful, and arguably one of the, if not the, best cavalry units in the game. They're the best unit we have. They fit into the category of elite troops, and elite troops from averagre-Ld armies are Ld 9.

Am I being too optimistic? Should Grails be Ld 9?
War's not about who is right, it's about who is left.
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Artinam (Moderator)
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  #121829
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
Yes, and they were in the last edition. I think they changed it because of balance reasons.
Long Live the Fighters!
Honneur aux armes, respect aux maitres!
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Old bold knight (Moderator)
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  #121830
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
Elite troops from average leadership armies are not leadership 9. Orcs and humans are average leadership, which is 7 as a racial basic.

Knights, Black Orcs and heroes are higher, at LD8, and Lord-level characters at LD9. It's more of a problem with a d6-based system, that there are only 3 LD steps that humans sit on, basic, elite and Lords.

Only Elves and Dwarves have LD9 elites, and their basic citizen soldiers start at 8 for Elves and 9 for Dwarves.

Grail knights are already immune to psychology anyway, and really shouldn't be losing combat often enough to make a difference! Having said that, 8 is a bit pathetic for Chaos Knights too. Again, it's down to balance reasons and a lack of grades of elite between basic trooper and army commander.
The price of rank is duty.
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  #121850
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
you know what i dont understand is why our friggin lord will never be LD 10 . i am so sick the stupid reasons
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  #121852
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
Because our lords are human? The only people who should be LD 10 are the leaders of Men, aside from Elves who get that given bonus of leadership, as with dwarves.

I don't believe the general of the Empire lord choice is LD 10?

-Jean-
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
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Old bold knight (Moderator)
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  #121854
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
All of the profiles are still chained to the stat increases for heroes and lords given waaay back in 3rd edition- a 'lord' has +3WS, +1S, +1T, +3A, +3I, +2LD over a normal troop of that race etc.

That's why a human, goblin and skaven hero have such similar stats, it's because their troops do, and the lack of variation in a d6 based system keeps them all close together.

It's only comparatively recently (6th) they started doing interesting stuff like having Elf characters locked at toughness 3, the General of the Empire only having 3 attacks etc.

I wonder if the problem is more with the Grail Knight unit not really fitting the fluff- in every Bret story, they are these lone mighty heroes, not entire squadrons of troopers that vastly outrank any of our heroes who are 'merely' Knights of the Realm.

Certainly according to anything written in the last decade, I wouldn't expect a Bretonnian force of a hundred men, containing fifteen Knights Errant and two dozen Knights of the Realm, to be suddenly joined by 9 of the nation's living saints unless the nation itself were at stake!

What might be interesting in the next book is if becoming a Grail Knight isn't just a vow, it involves a stat upgrade for characters.

E.G. If a Lord/Paladin takes the Grail Vow, they also gain +1 WS, A and I, in addition to magical attacks and immune to psychology. You'd pay through the nose for it, but it would help to set out an ancient Grail Lord as a more terrifying opponent than a Lord who is a Knight of the Realm, and thus has standard human Lord stats.

It would also mean that you could have characterful Grail Knight heroes who are heroes even amongst their own elite brotherhood- at the moment, a Grail Paladin joining a Grail Knight unit isn't exactly that heroic considering that he is 3 times the price with his kit and vow, has an extra attack and wound, and thus you are better off with the extra troopers!
Last Edit: 2012/04/12 10:00 By Old bold knight.
The price of rank is duty.
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Delaqure (User)
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  #121894
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
I do think GK ought to have 9LD. They do have immune to Pshych, which is very good and makes up for the lack of leadership in most cases. However, that does not effect combat results. If they are indeed the embodiment of a saint, it would stand to reason that they are made of sterner stuff than other knights when the odds are against them. After all they have been through I would think losing a few of their fellows in combat would make them more determined than less.
Sir Robert had a mighty ax
He gave the hydra forty wacks
When he saw what he had done
He gave the dragon forty one
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leopard (User)

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  #121949
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
If you think of "Grail Knights" as simply one of many levels in the Order of the Grail they make a bit more sense, the Grail Paladins and Grail Lords especially more fitting of the fluff.

they missed a trick when they did 8th, either to go to a D12 system or a D10 system, or being GW a D10 system using a D12, with 1-10 and a "critical failure" & "critical success" number also for "always fails" & "always succeeds". plus becomes a unique pattern like the artillery dice etc.

Ld is approaching pointless anyway, half the army is in the Ld bubble of the general (thus thier own Ld is meaningless) and probably within the BSB re-roll bubble negating a low Ld of the general as well.

biggest issue is that failing a break test now is fatal, in 3rd it wasn't, and now other Ld based tests matter much more to some armies.

Goblins "fear" elves, but what effect does it have?
Goblins drop from WS:2 to WS:1, they do fewer hits on the WS:4 elves, but v the WS:5+ stuff makes no difference, the elves get no benefit directly. thus a goblin failing a "fear" test matters little.

A QK or KoTR failing (less likely) is devastating to them.


a simple change that could make a bit of sense. ItP = ability to re-roll Ld tests, not the ability to ignore them totally. thus these become the guys who operate outside the Ld bubble, and less likely to break without actually gaining "stubborn" - either that or ItP including "stubborn"
Janco Toys - Barnsley
MKWS - Stoney Stratford
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possumman (User)
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  #121955
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
Ld is approaching pointless anyway, half the army is in the Ld bubble of the general (thus thier own Ld is meaningless) and probably within the BSB re-roll bubble negating a low Ld of the general as well.

Yeah, but if they were Ld 9 I wouldn't HAVE to deploy them within the bubble, giving my strategy and deployment a huge amount of flexibility. They would become a truly independent unit, as Grails should be.
War's not about who is right, it's about who is left.
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Old bold knight (Moderator)
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  #121957
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
You could always give the Grail Knights the Banner of Discipline to represent this, as seems to be the initial intention of the banner, spreading high leadership around the army rather rather focusing on a ld10 bubble.
The price of rank is duty.
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ZT Strike (User)
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  #122013
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
whatever makes them the badasses they should be...
-ZT Strike
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leopard (User)

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  #122016
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
thing is though, when do they test?

ItP means they ignore fear, terror and panic, they test when loosing combat, but frankly if they have lost combat there are other problems, they should be winning when Ld doesn't matter
Janco Toys - Barnsley
MKWS - Stoney Stratford
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possumman (User)
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  #122029
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
True, they don't test that often, but:

- If they do lose combat, I want them to goddam hold!
- They will occasionally test/use Ld for spells, and things similar to Banshee screams, stuff like that. Largely depends on your opponent though
- They could pass Ld 9 onto nearby peasants

To be honest, it's more the principle. Ld 8 for Grail Knights is just.... poor.
War's not about who is right, it's about who is left.
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leopard (User)

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  #122050
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
possumman wrote:
True, they don't test that often, but:

- If they do lose combat, I want them to goddam hold!
- They will occasionally test/use Ld for spells, and things similar to Banshee screams, stuff like that. Largely depends on your opponent though
- They could pass Ld 9 onto nearby peasants

To be honest, it's more the principle. Ld 8 for Grail Knights is just.... poor.


ahh with you, forgot about a few other things triggering tests
Janco Toys - Barnsley
MKWS - Stoney Stratford
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MajorMcNicol (User)
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  #122053
Re:Should Grail Knights be Ld 9? 2 Years, 6 Months ago
With regards to all the fluff, I don't even know if there should be units of Grail Knights. They are so rare and powerful, having only 1W and Ld8 is, in my opinion, not representative of knights who have supped from the Grail. That said, as pointed out earlier in this thread, what is the reasoning for having entire units of them? I think having Paladins or Lords with the Grail Vow is a better, more accurate way to have Grail Knights in an army, albeit more costly and limited.
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