This thread discusses the Content article: The Banner of Defence good or bad?

I took this banner against my roommate's skaven and it was worth its weight in gold. I used it in conjunction with the Virtue of Noble Disdain, and deployed the unit equipped with it directly in front of the skaven general.

Warp lightning, jezzails, didn't do a thing--I think he killed maybe three KotR in two rounds of shooting. Now admittedly, I was lucky on the rolls. However, I chose the banner using statistics: my expected casualties without the banner left me with only 7 models out of 15; with the banner, odds were that I would have had 9--enough to complete the third rank for a +2 rank bonus in combat resolution (not to mention the added attacks). Furthermore, the expected points value of the difference in casualties (48) exceeds the cost of the banner (30 points) by a margin of 62%, which, combined with the chance of denying my roommate 50% casualty victory points, was more than enough to justify my investment.

I deployed my other units behind terrain features, so round one the uint with the banner was literally the only unit he could shoot at. Turns two and three he was directing all of his fire at the bannered unit unit in the hopes of panicking them (he knew about the banner but not the virtue). Round three the charge was declared, and his choice was to flee off the table edge or receive the charge . . .

He was able to hold up two of my large units with march-blockers, but turn 7 would have been pretty grim for the skaven. As it was, I held him to a minor victory.

The Banner of Defence is definitely a niche item, but when it works, it works fabulously. I wouldn't take it against just any army, but I am seriously considering using the same tactics against my friend's Imperial army, which is notorious for its cannons and volley-guns.

I deployed my other units behind terrain features, so round one the uint with the banner was literally the only unit he could shoot at. Turns two and three he was directing all of his fire at the bannered unit unit in the hopes of panicking them

that's one of the problems with the thing: it needs very specific circumstances to work.

About deploying behind terrain, that's usually a bad idea.
-It usually causes you to take a turn longer to actually get anywhere, making his shooting worse instead of less. Your charge in turn 3 might have been in turn 2.
-It messes up your deployment and battle plan. many lances having to wheel in crowded conditions is a nightmare with those long flanks, while your deployment is now more dictated by placement of terrain than effective formation.
-Worst of all, it gives more initiative to the opponent, which is something a cavalry player cannot afford.


Giving it to KotR is usually a bad idea, since he can just shoot other stuff. Your opponent not doing so is a bit of an exception.
With GK it does help a bit, but it's still a very limited effect.

cheers,
martin

Hiding behind terrain is a very viable option:

Provided you have some way to neutralize the shooting.

An extra turn of shooting at you is very livable if all the enemy shooting units are dead.

As to the banner of defense. It can be very nice, a few points you get a boosted ward save but it's only a small boost. I take it when I have extra points.

it is important to note that the banner of defense cannot be given to a unit of KOTR. the KOTR can carry a magic banner worth up to 25pts. on the other hand, if you gave it to your BSB, that would work.

i like the banner, personally. but, i often find myself cutting it out of my list to save a few points.

SaintofVirtue wrote:
Hiding behind terrain is a very viable option:

Provided you have some way to neutralize the shooting.

An extra turn of shooting at you is very livable if all the enemy shooting units are dead.

if you're talking about hiding a few frail units then I agree.
I often hide my Yeomen while there is a lot of low-strength shooting on the board. I can imagine hiding my GK for a turn or two if there are a lot of war machines, but haven't done so yet.



The rest is resilient enough to withstand a lot of shooting, so because of the reasons I mentioned I never hide them. That's for elves.

Even worse, if you hide your main units then your warmachine hunters will get all the fire by themselves. The best tactic against shooty armies is to overwhelm them with more than they can take out, attacking them piecemeal is suicide.


cheers,
martin

Post edited by: Skavenslayer, at: 22.02.2008 08:19 GMT

Against shooting armies I hide my army the first turn and then overwhelm them carefully. I don't have much out in the open and I screen the important units on my way there.

Think about it. One less turn of shooting against my army is something I ca live with.

If they can't see me on the first turn then they waste it.

As to units being able to withstand shooting, I used to think that. I learned. Have you ever run into a bunch of dwarf hand gunners? Empire handgunners are nasty too since their are more of them. Quite capable of killing an entire unit in a turn. Then their is the war machines. They may not kill all of you but what's left doesn't have the punch to kill what they have. Overwhelm them if you wish, I recommend it in fact, but it's a bad idea to go charging like a maniac across the fields. It ends poorly so we must overwhelm them carefully. Still if it is just elves it's not to bad. It's the S4 armor piercing you need to be careful about and the elves only have so many bolt throwers. Which incidentally, the banner of defense doesn't help against at all.

Attacking piecemeal is not always suicide it depends on what you face and how your plans work out. In fact attacking piecemeal has allowed me to win about 90% of my games against gunlines. Mind you it must be done carefully and not: throw a unit into another then let it get killed so you can send another one in. It's a careful battle plan. Have some knights kill weak units, like war machines and overrun, and the others wait. Then when the first knights return charge from the front and rear or sometimes sides.

I use a unit of 4 grail knights with full command and banner of defence. lord with virtue of knightly temper armour of agilulf and mane of purebreed and a battle standard bearer with virtue of impetuous knight and banner of the lady
This unit is absolutly immense against big units but i would have more grail knights if i could afford them!

I would like to point out that when you combine banner of defense in your Grail Knights unit, then give say your Kotr unit a banner of twilight, and combine this with your PK. It forces the enemy to decide what to shoot and gives you a tactical edge.Is it expensive yes. Do I always take all 3 no but I do take 2 of the 3 nearly every time. Many opponents persume you have banner of twilight somewhere when you deploy behind terrain sometimes this works to your advantage.

If facing a magic weak army your damsels might get in some lore of life shielding but thats rare unless fielding the Fey or Propthess. Lately I am fielding much more magic defense as gone are the days of one scroll caddy to get you through most tournament battles.

The charge across the board tactic can be risky if facing a gun line near its own table edge. I have seen this used to full effect against an all out charge set up. End results one knight unit paniced the other didn't have enough left to do anything and the 3rd unit only routed one unit. Hardly enough to justify the loss of 2 units. If you only got 6 turns to fight make sure you take those kind deployments into account in tournys.


Our biggest enemy out there that hurts us shooting wise is cannons and bolt throwers both which can be extremely nasty. I have lost 7 knights before to one round of shooting with 2 bolt throwers (although this was caused by spells going off that allowed them to shoot in the magic phase as well)

I feel if you not fielding the Fey and will/might be facing a shooty type army the banner of defense is a must. Some games it will be nearly worthless but it's like an insurnace policy you don't miss it till you need it.

Most games without the Fey,involving cannons and/or bolt throwers, I have seen go like this enemy takes turn 1 shoots every thing in sight thats moving up fast. Round 2 does same and postions intercepting units to keep you from charging the vulnerable gun lines on hills. You break the pin units, and then he shoots your knights right out their saddles as you run those units down. Thats to say if he is smart in his movement phase turn 1 and 2 and deployment phase. Something that helps with this regard is lore of life odds are you will get the shielding spells and/or master of stone and this can tip the balance back to your knights if it works. Is it fool proof? No ,but better than getting shot to piecies with an all out charge against a good gun line deployer.

If your a Brett player the worst item you can see in the enemy ranks is mutiple bolt throwers they have to die fast as they have better odds than the cannons of causing you serious harm. They, bolt throwers that is, do not misfire. They penetrate our ranks and cause multiple wounds that must be ward saved. They are cheap and takes killing all them to get any points for the game win as well.

My friends, I've fought against many all out shooting armies, including dwarves (50 thunderers, 6 bolt throwers, cannons, etc), lizardmen skink army (120 skinks and 4 skink shamans, etc), high elves, skaven, dark elves, among others.

They all have different abilities but they're all shooting armies.
The only times I managed to win when fighting against these kind of armies is patience and not to use all you army.

Yes, you heard right, do not use all your army.

Pick a good unit that is in a good position that can move behind terrain and not get shot at.

Take it all the way to one flank of the enemy.
This way your opponent is panicking and you're winning psychologically.
Why? Because it's turn 3 and he didn't kill you anything yet!

Then see what he's doing.
If he keeps his formation facing your deployment zone then flank attack with the flanking unit(s) only.
If he does turn his units to face the flanking unit(s) then march move with all the army if you have to.

I remember fighting against a lined up dwarf army.
I moved with the grail knights (being the most reliable unit), flanked his army, charged and kept overrunning half of his army in two turns.
I charged in turn 4.

It was the only unit that I used and I didn't lose it.
So be patient, if you can't win against impossible shooting odds thin their lines by flanking them.

Do not hurry.

<Hitting the Enter key once in a while, makes your reply easier to read and understand T>

I have a question about the bolt throwers. On the first two wounds (S6 and S5) the banner will have the effect, but will it help on subsequent wounds (S4, S3, S2, S1)?

No, as soon as the strength get's below 5 no more help from the banner

It is very good against bolt throwers though, since the chance of actually penetrating the first two ranks and hitting the third is very small with the banner.

Only about 1 in 6, without the banner it is almost double the chance!

Against a Dwarf or O&G army with lots of bolt throwers the Banner is really useful.


cheers,
Martin

But against a stegadons giant bow, a bolt thrower with S5 at the first hit, the banner wo'nt help me much then.

well, the effect is less but it is still a bit useful.

The big thing that makes ward saves so good against bolt throwers is that if you make one save, you stop the bolt completely! So one succesful save can save several knights, unlike with other weapons.



Against the Steg, the banner reduces the damage of 1 hit from an average of 1 dead knight to 0,75 kills.
But as you can see, the shot wasn't very dangerous in the first place, so the profit in points is fairly low.

As an example, Stegadons usually hit on a 5 (bs 3 + moving). So to it would take 3 shots to kill one knight on average! That means that just for one or two Giant bows, the Banner of Defense is not worth it.



That's the thing with shooting: People remember the 1 time when half a unit is wiped out, and start thinking they need to get all defensive. But they forget the 10 times that shooting did very little.

Brets are amazingly resilient and fast. I mostly ignore their 500 points of shooters/magic missiles* and let them take out 100-300 points of knights, then smash their combat units because I still have more points than they do.


cheers,
Martin




*movement and raising spells are a different matter, though, how I hate those...

Skavenslayer wrote:
Stegadons usually hit on a 5 (bs 3 + moving

I think they don't get any to hit-penalty for moving and shooting. However, you are right... It might not be worth it. But as my friend plays empire I have found a new use for the banner: The helblaster volley gun, which, unless it misfires, shoots 6-30 S5 shots with a -3 AS modifier. As our bold knights' armour will be reduced to a 5+ and they will wound on 2+, a 4+ ward is good to have.