Post here all your tactica vs the wretched Dark Elf slavers.
The old topic will be locked and kept for reference purposes.

Ty Artinam, I was just thinking of asking to make a post for this, but you where miles ahead of me.

I play-tested with a friend yesterday. I tested a RAF list as I see potential for this type of list now that hordes are less taken. He tested the new Dark Elves with a MSU type of list. The list he loved with dark elves in 7th but less in 8th.
Naturally it was a great game with lots of "cat and mouse" moves and "Mexican standoffs". It ended in a explosion of fight and moves and where there was no coherence left in the armies.

Things to note about the dark elves is that they are a army with allot of damage output per model. Even there great weapon units hit before us and there is allot of frenzy or even super frenzy. There downside apart from frenzy (if badly used) they are very fragile. So wounding them if you get to that point, is not that hard.

Magic: One spell from the DE lore on it self is not that deathly. It is the combination of at least two spells and some type of unit that give it the potential to be very deathly. If you play against them, keep in mind what they want to lower and what other spells they have and units close to your units. Some boosted version gets more statistics lowered. Sometimes it is better to stop those small spell and take the big hit with normal stats killing only 1 knight in the process.
There is a mechanic, alto not used by my opponent, that gives extra power dice with a good change to take wounds from the caster. (yes they kill themselves) but don't worry there is also a spell that can give the sorceress more wounds then her starting wounds. No doubt some players will play out this mechanic very deathly.

Heroes and lords:
From what I noticed nothing changed much from the previous book apart from that they can have characters with the fast cav rule and therefor can join fast Cav units without loosing the rules for that type of unit.

Core:
Witch elves are core and dark riders are cheaper even with the extra shield option and they where already great units!
didn't see corsairs or regular dark elves.

Special:
Shades are great units, scouts with there ASF+ASL= strike on can kill allot with there great weapons and repeated crossbows. Expect them always in a DE army.
Harpies are not as useful as before but still a nice unit to redirect and attract shooting.

Rare:
Kharibdyss big ugly mean and with its strength 7 a needed unit in a DE list.
Warlocks: combination of which elves, dark riders and pink horrors. They are fast cav. Cast spells as a unit and have a 4++. there speed, safe and magic make them a good option to take.

Medusa fragile and eager to kill (and die) with her super frenzy and low leadership. But in general she is a monster killer, as she kills the target (CC or shooting)with its initiative instate its of toughness (remember that DE magic lowers initiative as well). No that deadly against knights.


looking overal:
MSU is very powerful for a DE army. Although hard to play (beginners will struggle) very deadly. Shooting is good against them, but there repeated crossbows can do the same to us. It is not needed for them to have an infantry bunker for there wizards as the fast cav rule gives them look out sir roles and makes them mobile that they can get close to a unit and still escape combat.

I watched a game yesterday, only 1500 points but there was a lot of discussion on the book as well. The big story here is everything in the army is instantly better with ASF -- this means that most units will hit you first, reroll their misses, and reroll 1s on wounds. And they're relatively cheap.

Hydras are special and only 160 points before upgrades. They no longer have regeneration -- now they have a chance to grow a head back at the end of each of their turns (roll a die for each wound, 4+ it comes back). So... no sniping or gradually running them down with arrows. I would expect 2 at 2000+, and I'm only saying 2 because their rare unit, Kharybdis or whatever, is ALSO only 160 pts. It's S7 and a character killer, as if it directs all attacks against one model, it gets extra attacks. So hope that your HKB lord rolls those 6s...

At 1500 points, the DE player had two 25-man units of spears, 2 20-man units of repeater crossbows, one 10-man unit of cold one knights, a sorceress and a hydra. He played an Empire player, and it was a pretty solid victory for the DE. One repeater crossbow unit was deployed awkwardly and so didn't get to participate much, but the other 20-man unit killed a 10-man detachment of handgunners first turn, the Helblaster next turn, and then whittled down a horde of Greatswords. 40 shots needing 5-6 to hit (which is moving each turn) is a lot of shots. And they're cheap, did I mention that? With their Armor Piercing rule, they will mess up our pretty lances with sheer volume of shots.

The hydra was shot by the great cannon two turns in a row, but each DE turn it recovered all the wounds that were caused, so at the end of the battle it was fine.

The Cold One Knights were misused, but at only 30 points these guys are BAD. High WS, ASF, reroll misses, S6 on the charge (so 2+ usually), and reroll 1s to wound means a 10-man unit with a champion will wound you with a -3 AS 8-9 times before you strike. Put a big unit of peasants in front of them and get the turn two charge, or redirect them with yeomen and ensure that you charge them. It might even be worth putting PKs or a hero/lord on Pegasus into their flanks.

The answer to their low T and low AS would seem to be shooting, but you have to factor in that a unit of repeater crossbows at 20 strong will likely be taking out one of your shooter units each turn. Maybe hide the trebs behind rocks and fire indirect at big infantry blocks, with the Craftsman upgrade? (And pray for a 2-4 on the scatter die.)

This DE player only had the one character and didn't do much with her, but there was the option for a boosted magic missile that was 4d6 S4 Armor Piercing hits (I think). In addition, any damage or hex spell that targets a unit successfully will also incur Xd6 S1 AP hits on that unit depending on the number of doubles rolled. Kind of a minor nuisance, but potentially bad.

I played against them when they came out, and I found out a few things...

A. The Hydra is really low leadership and gets less fearsome with less wounds, so pepper it with bowmen or just charge it with a medium size lance and don't get rubber lance syndrome.

B. Their magic is meant to stack on each other. Lots of their spells reduce stats and then they throw stat tests and Lore attribute attacks on you, make sure word of pain doesn't go off, or what bonus we do have with knights is mostly gone, especially the powered up version.

C. Cold one cav are still a menace, but they can be dealt with, just pray to the Lady you can make your saves and get the charge!

D. They have Lore of Beasts now, so expect to see a level 1/2 running around casting Wyssan's on Cold Ones and they big monsters.

I'll post more when I find it.

For me dark elves used to be one of the worst matchups for us however with the new book I can't dee much to trouble us...

Witch elf hoard can be diverted
Executioners are just as squishy as ever
Won't see as many repeater xbows due to point increase
Hydra has no regen now
New monster (I want to say kraken) is a worry due to init4 and s7
Repeater bolt throwers are also a cocern having moved to special

lord artur wrote:
For me dark elves used to be one of the worst matchups for us however with the new book I can't dee much to trouble us...

Witch elf hoard can be diverted
Executioners are just as squishy as ever
Won't see as many repeater xbows due to point increase
Hydra has no regen now
New monster (I want to say kraken) is a worry due to init4 and s7
Repeater bolt throwers are also a cocern having moved to special

A lot of their infantry choices are squishy, but with Always Strikes First and reroll 1s to wound, I don't relish the thought of charging a unit of Executioners. Actually, I don't relish the thought of charging anything that has ASF.

Witch Elf hordes can be diverted, but it's just a leadership test for them not to charge, and their LD is 9 -- rerollable with BSB nearby...

Hydra doesn't have Regen, but it DOES regrow its wounds. At the end of every DE turn, they roll a die for each wound it's taken. On a 4+ it comes back. So you have to kill it quick -- dropping a treb stone on it every turn won't get it done.

We're less worried about the repeater crossbows than other races, true.

I'm worried about Warlocks. While expensive, they're probably the best fast cavalry in the game for the points, and they cast spells. They'll make mincemeat of yeomen and then swarm trebs. But PKs should be able to take care of them on the charge (if we get it).

Some excellent points there sir..

Haven't played against them yet so I am working off theory.

Agreed on the warlocks those are ace and being a welf player aswel I am a tad jealous of those guys.

Hydra should die to a charge from knights, no?

I would treb the executioners tbh

Totally forgot about the new rules for frenzy I suppose those witch elves might be worry then.

I haven't played them yet, either, just watched a game and listened to a few conversations. I'm also a pessimist when it comes to new army books -- I always see the danger, even if it's not so bad. With Dark Elves, what bothers me the most is just how cheap everything in their list is.

The Hydra should die from a charge from knights, if things work well. But at 6 wounds and T5 (I think), it's not guaranteed. And if you charge in and don't finish it, it'll get some of those wounds back at the end of its next turn -- right when rubber lances are kicking in! And it's cheap. If I were a DE player, I would take either 2 hydras or 1 + the new monster every game above 1500 points. Maybe that was the intention...

Quick list I wrote with the book

Lv 4 on death with sac dag

3x 5 dark riders
Big unit of either spears or sword and board

4 bolt throwers
2x hydra
3x 5 shades

2x khrabidyss
2x 5 warlocks

2391 (2400 Is normal points level on my scene )

So yeah this probably isn't even optimal but I think this would cause us poor brets a few problems

Yeah, that's a little scary. Lots of monsters, a big block of presumably steadfast infantry, high S shooting and dangerous magic, and enough fast cav to slow anyone down.

I played against two DE armies at a tourney this last weekend. Both centered around having s Cauldron of Blood horde, but each had different supporting elements.

First game had two hydras with a beast master on a manticore, and two units of warlocks as support. I'll have to admit that the opponent was new to their army so your mileage may vary.

Hydras were both easily killed a bus of 12 KoTR. They are a lower initiative than you and lose attacks as it takes wounds, so isn't as scary assuming you charge. You are likely to win combat, and it won't be steadfast, thus easy to chase down and kill.

In an army like this the warlocks are their only ranged attacks. They'll attempt to Soul Blight and Doombolt you. If they are running the Cauldron you can expect them to try saving atleast one dice for its bound spell to get something frenzy.

In the first battle the Cauldron had a horde of Corsairs. They have great damage potential, so avoid frontal charges with knights. You will lose because they will reroll hits and wounds, and you will fail enough armor saves. I honestly think the best bet against this death star is to kite it until you can charge it in two arcs that are do not include the front. You cannot allow it to get its damage potential from the front arc, so locking it up with a double charge into two different side charges or a side and the rear seems your best bet.

In the second game the Cauldron had a horde of eitches, with the support of lots of ranged attacks from crossbows, repeater bolt throwers and assassin things.

I don't typically run trebs, and I wish I had in this game. This build will out shoot you, forcing you to close that gap and risk fighting the horde, or its close combat support in the form of spearmen or warlocks.

This player is one I usually fear because he is on top of the game and rarely makes mistakes, so he out general'ed me. A witch elf horde has so much damage potential, you must kite it.

I only have one game against the new dark elves under my belt, but I noticed a few things.

First if your opponent takes a witch elf horde and the caldron thank your lucky stars. Knights can fairly easily kill this unit. I charged two 9 man lances, one with the BsB, the other with the general (tooled up to challenge). I then used my Heavens caster to Ice Shard Blizzard the unit (which he let through) because he wanted to stop Curse (the reroll 6s spell), which he stopped.

Though the combat lasted about 4 rounds from the beginning the knights had the advantage. Yes the witch elves put out a scary amount of attacks, but even with armor piercing its not too scary. Last one turn and you should kill enough in return to really decrease their killing potential. To do this remember to force opponents to designate attacks, if you have a character and a Champion the DE player can only get so many attacks on the actual unit, which really decreases their attack potential. Combine that with a challenge making one of your 3 frontage models un strikable and you really negate their mass of attacks. At the end of the day they are str 3 naked chicks that are toughness 3!

Executioners are scary, there is no way to get around it. My suggestion target them with bowmen. Even if you only kill 5-6 that is a great decrease in their killing potential.

To combat them hit them in the flanks with a knight bus (which could potentially break fortitude because you won't be seeing huge units of them, they are too expensive). Better then this get your men at arms in combat with them. Executioners only have 1 attack, can't reroll misses, so they won't be able to scythe thru the unit in a round. Your return attacks should be pretty deadly, since again you are facing t3 elves with a +5 save. Even if you lose the men at arms you should devastate the executioners.

The final thing I noticed was you are most likely going to lose your trebs. Dark Elves can bring so many fast units that protecting them is nearly impossible. Instead accept you will lose them, but act like you care, and deploy accordingly. So for instance keep your lvl 4 away from the trebs, so they have to choose between the two targets.

So yeah my meta is now full of delfs and I'm now thinking that again they are one if the worst matchups for us. Mostly due to 4x bolt throwers, uncatchable fast cav and everyone and there dog running a executioner hoard with crown of command in there somewhere.

I play in mostly uncomped tourneys so it even quite common to see 2x 10 warlocks (yeah)