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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) (1 viewing) (1) Guest
Tactics specific for a certain foe are discussed here.
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TOPIC: Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition)
Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
Why stand and shoot?

If the archer volley is unlikely to do anything, you may as well run- otherwise the enemy will only be in your battleline, reform after combat, pointing at the next archer unit and outside of your fire arcs.

The ideal is run away, leave him stranded a few inches further forward, slowing him down and in not much of a better position than the turn before.

If you position yourself at 15" away the turn before, you almost certainly escape. The key is that nearby friendlies need to be deployed so that they are probably too far away for him to redirect on, rather than a usual tightly bunched deployment. In your next turn, the other archer units shoot the charging unit to pieces, get closer if they are outside it's charge arc, redirect with an eagle if they are and hopefully the fleeing unit rallies (go musicians!).

That is as much as I understand about 8th Wood Elf tactics, seems to work OK against smallish armies that close to melee- Chaos, HE, DE, Brets etc.
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Honeur Guard (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
I didn't mean to imply that you were Sir - is that you in the videos? Though if you were shot to pieces, would you let him do that to you again? So perhaps he caught you out

Ably assisted by a raging torrent river, I did once shoot my chaos opponent to bits, including his chosen. But with even 1 or 2 men left in each unit and me on the ropes, he still won on VPs. I caught him out early on like that, the chosen were the only unit unmarked by bowfire and I managed to beat him with ranked eternal guard on combat res and a lucky (or unlucky) break test.

A balanced WE army ends up being smaller than it's adversary, with less missiles sometimes, and far less combat power. And NO armour!

Not faced orcs, or TK, empire or new Vamps. So I don't have all the experience. I'm adding my experience of playing WE to say what may be of help to Bretonnian players, from what I have read so far.
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
Aha, yes, perhaps you are right.

I have plans in mind should I ever play that army again, and no sir, it is not me in the video.
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Honeur Guard (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
Old Bold Knight, why stand and shoot? Possibly because you've fired for 2-3 turns at your opponent, maybe 1 at s4 15" range, whilst falling back. It's turn 4 and you're on the table edge. You're either off the table or maybe you get another s4 shot in and just maybe cause some wounds in hand to hand. Also if you're not on the table edge and this is happening turn 2, I would ask "Why?!" Fleeing foot archers can easily get caught by a charge from 15" away. I'd rather have more shots at 30" s3 than close range s4.

It depends entirely on the circumstances of course. One says shoot at 15", one says flee. Judge each situation by merit I say. I try not to let my opponent get to my bow line before turn 4, and still that's not enough firing. With their own fast cav, flyers and missile troops, WE are on the back foot and reacting all the time, not dictating the pace. You can only do that with Glade Riders.
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Honeur Guard (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
Some combat builds I am trying include:

2x6 treekin (about 800 points!)
2xlvl 3 lifeweavers

After 1 game, my opponents will bring fire!

A Dragon mounted lord
Purely defensive spellcasters
Bowmen and treekin

Not sure about this one.

I have a "lifestar" eternal guard list but 32 guard with a lifeweaver and BSB (stubborn) is nearly 1000 points. Nothing that anyone else can't do better and cheaper. And it's playing to lose, playing to survive not win.

I'm trying to squeeze 100 archers into a list, that's 1200 points. I only have 50 right now. Still not conviced of this against anything with armour saves.

Oh and BTW, I'm planning on getting someone to face me as Bretts with my own WE's, just so I can say it isn't me!! lol

Although I'm fairly new to WFB, I've been playing wargames for over 20 years. I do have tough opponents mind you - it's a steep learning curve.
Last Edit: 2012/05/17 11:44 By Honeur Guard.
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CountScarlord (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
Wood elves just suffer from the glaring weakness syndrome, every good thing about every wood elf unit can be countered by a glaring weakness if not more than 1.

Glade Guard: Great archers, S4 up close, skirmishing, bad? 12 points, T3, no armor, skirmishing.

Glade Riders: Annoyance, speed, shooting, bad? 24 points and our bowmen can kill them with ease.

Eternal Guard: Great combat unit, hits pretty hard, stubborn. bad? 12 points per model really easy to wound even with basic shooting, won't compare to expensive combat units in other armies.

Dryads: Amazing stats for the points, 5+ ward to non magical attacks, great in close combat, bad? Skirmishing, unit size restriction.

Wardancers: Good stats, special dances that give KB, ward saves, etc. bad? 18 points, no armor, easy to kill with shooting.

Warhawk Riders: monstrous fast cav, war machine killers, speed, bad? 40 points with literally no save except a 6+.

Wild Riders: Good at combat, ward saves, decent stats, good all around, bad? 26 points with a 5+ AS and a 5+ ward to non magical hits, and still T3.

Tree Kin: Easily the best monstrous infantry unit around, bad? the most expensive monstrous infantry around, flammable, I've seen 3 of these guys die to one fireball.

Waywatchers: KB at short range with longbows, very high BS, scout, bad? 24 points each with T3 and no save....yea.

Treman: A giant on meth, great saves, a good shooting attack, pretty darn cheap, bad? any monster killing thing or S5+ won't have much problem against it, Flammable, once again I've killed this guy with one fireball and with peasant bowmen alone.

I mean WE works don't get me wrong it's just there getting bet to no end with the nerf bat.
Last Edit: 2012/05/18 03:13 By CountScarlord.

Bretonnian Achievements: 37
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
I mostly agree with you there, There is a lot of redundancy in the WE list, multiple light units doing each others job, and some do it better than others, leaving warhawks and wardancers pointless compared to glade riders and dryads.

However, It's hardly a bad thing that wood elf archers can't skirmish- no one wants to play against armies that just field skirmish troops, (like lizard skink swarms!), it doesn't even look like a battle and makes for a one-sided, crap game until the enemy bring a similarly specialised list to cope. Nor are archers and dryads badly pointed at 12 points for their stats and abilities.

And it's not that they have been hit by the nerf bat, the book is just nearly ten years old and wood elves were affected far more negatively by rules changes than us, particularly 'step up' and 'steadfast' for enemy infantry when they have never had the numbers to really exploit themselves, nor the toughness and armour to resist enemy horde attacks when their book was designed to fight against people getting fewer attacks back.

Additionally, the flaming banner is now dirt cheap, and there is more reason to take flaming stuff due to the huge amount of regen in the game now, and one flaming attack removing regen for the rest of the round. I used to rarely see flaming attacks unless people knew they were playing wood elves specifically.

The changes to 8th edition were so fundamental in terms of army design than any army book no released since has just a pot luck chance of how well it copes now, leaving some stronger and some weaker until they are rebalanced.

Look at Empire- everyone was so used to points only going down with army book power creep that a 1 point increase on infantry and a decrease for cavalry to take 8th into account left some people mystified.
Last Edit: 2012/05/18 07:01 By Old bold knight.
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CountScarlord (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
I know dryads are priced well for their stats, their weakness is that they are a combat unit that can't claim ranks or break them, and maxing out at 20 is silly.

Archers are too expensive due to the fact that they die to a swift breeze.

They haven't been hit by the nerf bat, they got hit by the 8th edition bat.

Yea fire is insanely easy to grab and woodelves hate nothing less.

Also what WE archers can't skirmish? I often see Skirmish as a bad thing as it SEVERELY limits your combat ability.

Bretonnian Achievements: 37
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Honeur Guard (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
Yes, a friend suggesting unbreaking Dryads by allowing them to rank up.

I don't wish to go OT into a discussion of Wood Elf tactics and their abilities in 8th, but the background helps. The upshot is, I learnt a lot, quickly, playing WE, as it helps you get more out of less. So whilst your opponent is pleasing himself with all the toys you don't have and mopping your archers up, the look on their face is indescribable when you get near to a draw with them. If your WE opponent isn't a complete fool distracted by the sledgehammer nature of other armies, he will have learned the hard way and he will make you fight for every last VP. A defeat to WE should be about as embarrassing as they come in this edition.

So if faced by the scalpel wielding WE veteran, a Bretonnian army has to:

a) Avoid the waywatchers sniping your characters.
b) Get in amongst their archers. If it's mounted archers, catch them with trebuchets, archers and spells like chain lightning.
c) Don't get mobbed by MSU skirmishers or "hammer and anvil" tactics - Treekin/Treemen/Eternal + wild riders/skirmishers.

I'm looking forward to researching some of my own Bretonnian lists to fight my own WE, since no one else plays them around here!
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Cormag (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 11 Months ago
I have never lost to wood elves, though I did come close in 7th edition...in 8th I have NO trouble at all.

My grails always have the flaming banner...they go for the treekin...my Lord has HKB, he goes for the treeman...I take out everything else with KOTR and Errants...EZ Peezee.
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jonke75 (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 10 Months ago
I play woodelves in tournaments and I do agre that WE are underpowered but the thing about them is that they have means to take on almost any army aout there and go toe to toe with them as long as you focus on your own game.

The bane of Wood Elves is NOT flaming atacks or magic attacks. It's the simple fact that we lack a way of dealing with armour saves.

However... There are a few spells and tricks that WE can utilise to deal with armies like this.
First of all we need to dominate the magic phase. Its unreliable I know, but it CAN be done.

2500 Pts - Wood Elves Roster
10 Dryads (Purpose redirect charges)

20 Glade Guards with flaming banner and full command.
(Housing general noble and lifeweaver)

12 Glade guards
(Housing Beast weaver)

6 Glade Guard Scouts
(Housing sniper nobe to ensure that he can get the drop on the wizards trying to hide in units)

6 Tree Kin

6 Tree Kin

1 Fighter Noble (hail of doom arrow and 4 attacks with greatweapon)
1 Sniper Noble (Str3 Sniper arow that hits on 2+ and sniper spite Str4 that hits on unmodified 3+)
1 Noble on Great Eagle (2+ Armour and 3+ Ward. With potion of strength)

1 Spellweaver Lvl4 (Life) Must get Dwellers from Below and would like to get Throne of wines and Regrowth.
Lamentation of Despair. Model takes Ld test or takes 1D3 wounds without saves
Book of Ashur +1 cast/+1Dispel

1 Spellweaver Lvl3 (Beast) Need Amber Spear and/or Curse of anrehir. useful Kadon spell.
Hex scroll to turn casters to frog.

Due to Bretonnians praying I will get first turn and will move my scouts into 18" range from the lvl 2 wizard taking two sniper shots. Str3 and 4 usually knocking off at least one wound. Best case scenario 2 and a dead lvl 2.

Archers will pick on trebuchets taking at least one out. 4 wounds with 32 arrows is not impossible. If required you can always add in hail of doom too.

The beast wizard will cast a high powered amber spear or Hex scroll on the most expensive knights unit. So either a Str10 boltthrower or a swamp killing knights that moves faster then a walk on 1 and 2. This will draw out a scroll 9 times out of 10. If there are 8+ Dice in the pool the next target will be the unit containing the lvl 4 wizard and from exactly 24" a Dwellers will most likely go off. With +5 to cast only 16 is required and can be done on 4 dice. This spell will usually be dispelled.

If the knights choose to charge the scouts, they will usually flee and cause a failed charge. Nothing else should be within 20" from the knights and no charges will be done. Magic phase can cause some problems. If a lvl 4 caster casts the frog scroll will be used and there's 33% chance of turning her into a T1 frog with no items or abilities. If the lvl 2 caster is still unhurt, she will be the target of the scroll with 66% chance of turning her into a frog. A frog that is in serious trouble due to the sniper beeing able to pick on her no matter where she is, and the frog giving the entire unit a movement of 1 until she can return to normal.

If the lvl 4 is turned into a frog, i have several ways of taking her out. Lamentation: Ld test with Ld1 or take 1D3 wounds. Sniper noble with 2+/3+ shots that wound on 2+ now with T1. Lamentation. Str test with Str1 or die.

The eagle noble is here to tie up the most annoying unit. Either lots of knights or Grail knights. Charge in on them with potion of strength giving him 4 attacks Str8 on the charge. A 2+ save and 3+ ward save until he fails it against the retaliating atacks. He can ususally hold of the enemies elite units for at least a turn or two. Enought to let the rest of the army do their job.

The 6 man treekin units can be used to tie up knights for quite some time with "wysans wild form" and or Regrowth as long as the general is within reach. And 18 attacks Str6 is not something to be scoffed at. This isually means that we end up on a small win for the treekin or a small win for the knights. The Treekin can use the generals leadership and will usually stand their ground, and now the knights are in touble. A character or two in the unit will tip the favour to the knights but not much. The spellcaster will regrow lost wounds and the longer the fight takes the greater the odds of the knights loosing.

Magic dominance and tying up the unit I cant deal with is the key to this list beeing so powerful in tournaments so far.

The bane to me is when the rolls for spells goes horribly wrong and or the winds of magic goes fickle for a long time. I need about 7+ dice to deal with 2+ save armies.
Last Edit: 2012/06/12 09:08 By jonke75.
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 9 Months ago
be wary of huge units of dryads...ive never seen anything eat up my M@A as fast. and if they are in the woods they are stubborn.
Francois Le Basque of Montefort

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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 9 Months ago

i found your points on commanding wood elves in tourneys interesting, but have a couple of questions-

a) combination of frog scroll and sniper is very interesting. Nice combo!

b) do people really set up trebuchets in range of your archers? Most Bret players I've seen in tourneys deploy them in the corners or behind infantry units, with a further -2 to hit penalty for archery.

c) Agree that you are relying on a strong magic roll for everything to work, but it's cool that you've got a plan. Sometims people don't plan for the best case scenario and can waste a good phase. Rolling a double six gives you double the power dice of the opponent's dispel dice, it doesn't happen often and isn't to be squandered!

d)No dispel scroll? Surely enemy magic takes it's toll on you faster if the frog spell doesn't work? Enemy armies with life magic and Dwellers (like Brets) must be gunning for your own mages too.

e) The wood elf 3+ ward save, is that against magical damage or non-magical damage? I can't remember which is which!

f) Do Bret players really scroll the Amber spear? 3 S10 hits, that need to roll to wound and then they get ward saves... Surely, if an enemy army has 7 spells including Dwellers, you save the scroll for Dwellers? it's 3 hits allowing ward saves vs 50% of a unit dead +50% chance of mage death... I usually have the silver mirror and the dispel scroll, both reserved for Dwelllers/Hex scrolls etc etc!
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jonke75 (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 9 Months ago
Some answers:

A) Thank you... It's been the bane of many level two casters and due to scouts beeing used I usually end up going second so I have never seen a level two scroll caddie ever live to use their scroll due to one solution or another

Most artillery can TRY to stay out of reach from my archers. Remember that all Woodelf archers can move and shoot without penalties.
With 30" range and 5" move you get 35" range on archers and 30" + 10" for scouts. So there will ALWAYS be artillery within range.
And remember the lamentation of despair bound spell. Take a Ld test and if failed suffer 1D3 wounds with no saves. Not to useless against a trebuchet with ld 5!!! And on top of that we have a 20" eagle harasing warmachines. If they are sneaky enough to deploy way out in a corner thay usually manage to stay around for a turn or two but never fire more then twice in a game.

C) This game plan and a few of the tricks has made a good reputation in Sweden and I even think some of the trick will make it to ETC as a friend of mine is in the team this year. Will se what they will snatch and use.

D) Dispell scroll. A level 4+1 (5) caster is usually enough to handle the worst spells for a round or two and if they happen to cast irresistable there is no scroll in the world can help me anyway. The plan is to neutralize or severely hamper enemy magic before the end of turn two establishing magic dominance for the last turns. In all tournaments i have been to we all run the new format wich gives characters a lookout sir roll for spells afecting the entire unit. So scroll is not necessary to keep your heroes alive hiding in units.

E) Both types exist. One says 3+ ward for all but magic attacks. The one I use gives 3+ ward agains all but is removed when failed. This is to stop all artillery even dwarfs from hampering my lock down noble. If he fails his 3+ ward he's usually on the reciving end of a Str10 multiple wound hit anyway so he's probably dead anyway. This item atleast gives him a decent chance to mess with gameplans.

F) It depends on the units on the recieving end... I usually throw amber spear on knight units to eliminate thrre knights and remove a full rank. Ranks are everything in 8th ED. and by just removing ranks you are on the way of beating the knights. All woodelves have problems dealing with 2+ armour save and thats why the amber spear is the most efficient item we have to eliminate 2+ knights per turn. Dwellers WILL be scrolled. But the funny thing is... Is your scroll caddie still on her feet to scroll. Most people tend to have their low level casters as scroll caddies. And the level two caster is usually neutralized at the end of turn 1. But of coarse the scrolls will be around to use against dwellers if they exist. Also dont underestimate the curse of anrehir. Turning ANY terrain even open into dangerous and kills knights on 1-2 is a horrible thing to recieve. Of coarse you could always make a normal move and avoid the curse but errant knights may be in trouble.

The bane of my woodelves has been the Vampire ETC bus... A deathstar of vampires. I can imagine a similar thing would happen with a Grailknight or questing knight deathstar with the right banner and or magic weapons. The solution to this will probably come when I recieve a true 5+ ward on my sprites instad of a fluky one removed by magic attacks.
Last Edit: 2012/07/10 10:43 By jonke75.
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Honeur Guard (User)
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Re:Tactics vs Wood Elves (8th Edition) 1 Year, 9 Months ago
I find amber spear is nice against single model high T targets (doomwheel) and dwellers better for large units of lower T. The high cast value of dwellers is not a major issue: either your level 4 life also has throne of vines (dispel battles often ensue over this, requiring up to 8 dice to get a nice vines + dwellers combo off) or she's on a mount, meaning you can fast cav 12" away to get the lower one off more frequently.

WE can effectively close down the enemy magic phase with dispel items: re-rolling all dispel attempts and often +1 dispel dice (either for the phase or for 4+ power dice used) for a paltry 80 points.

My WE lists went from having 2xlvl 3 or 4's in them to a single level 4. Beasts was nice to get improved transformation off and maybe pick up curse of anraheir or amber spear but it is so easy to dispel. I save the points for archers and treekin now and forget about dispelling. It's not enemy magic that kills me, it's everything else that survives the arrows. Still no good against armoured targets though and there's only so many a "machine gun" arcane bodkin highborn can take out per turn (who still has to wound and get past ward saves).

And that's the problem with advancing to get in range - you might get the warmachines but your losing turns of firing at the melee troops.
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