I was wondering if the ld negative applies to the character with the virtue himself. The text is fairly ambiguous,

"...any friendly unit (including other knightly characters, or units using a knights leadership) taking any form of leadership test within 6" of this model suffer a -1 to their leadership."

I can really see it going either way. Is he a friendly unit within 6" of himself? A model cannot be in base to base with itself.

I've started getting highly philosophical about this, and it is too late at night to rely on myself, so I put the question before you, friends.

As how I read it, it does not apply to himself, It does mean that the unit he is in, takes takes leadership tests at -1 LD. So you cannot keep the LD8 (with a Paladin). In effect the unit has ld 7. This only has effect if he is riding on his own.

Here's the thing.

I cannot thi8nk of another 'bubble' effect in the game that doesn't apply to the unit that generates the bubble (where possible) - so I really think that yes, the Ideal Knight is subject to -1 Ld.

Sir Jules Estelle, what came to mind for me was the Other Trickster's Shard. I tried to allude to it, but 4 am is not the best time for clear thinking or writing. The OTS makes models in B2B with the bearer reroll wards. A model however, cannot be in B2B with itself and does not have to reroll. Therefore, can a model be within 6" of itself? At 4am this leads to a rather philosophical and unrewarding train of thought.

All this said, the same ambiguous wording is used for the "hold your ground" trait of the BSB, "...friendly models within 12" inches of the Battle Standard Bearer re-roll" etc etc.... BRB p.107

So the next question and only remaining doubt is whether a solo character is considered to be a "unit". The answer is pretty clear, "A unit consists of 1 or more models that are arranged in orthogonal base contact with each other..." BRB p.3

This makes me sad.

And therein lies my point - the -1 Ld effect of the Virtue s a bubble - not a base-to-base.

All other bubble effects (those with a radius extending from the model in question) affect the model which generates the bubble.

The BSB's reroll bubble affects the BSB, Boosted Harmonic Convergence affects the caster, The Lore Attribute of Life may affect the caster.

Whilst I agree that it is odd and probably not what was intended, there is little doubt in my mind that the Ideal Knight does indeed suffer -1 Ld since he himself is within the bubble he generates.

Virtue of ideal sucks anyway you can be a chaos lord without the S and T to back it up, also you get to be a big fat debuff to your own army, also the best part?! you get to pay for it!!!! No thanks....

The virtue sucks, yeah.
But a model is definitely within 6" of itself - would anyone try to claim it is OUTSIDE of 6" of itself? It has to be one or the other.

Im pretty sure the one causing the effect is within its radius.

Man I wish VoI wasnt such a downer. I really want to make an Army based around the Mousillon theme but that -1 to the LD is such a bite. Why did they even make that virtue?

Probably to get a cheap Lordlike character. A Paladin with the Virtue has better Stats then a Bretonnian Lord for fewer points (with an added disadvantage). These days the -1Ld can be compensated a bit with the Banner of +1Ld and the new BSB rules.

Alternatively put him on a pegasus and let him hit the enemy flanks far away from the rest of the army. Yeah its still expensive and does little but it does sound cool.

I do not think that the Virtue of the Ideal's leadership penalties affect the bearer of the virtue himself.

In example of why not can first be seen in the warhammer rulebook, page 508, bottom half of the page; miscast table (2-4, Dimensional Cascade). "Every model (including the Wizard) suffers a Strength 10 hit". Now in this case the wizard is the one 'supplying' the effect (the miscast) just as the Bretonnian Hero is providing the effects of the Virtue. The difference between the two is that this example has written in it including the wizard. This is also the case in Earhtblood, the Lore of Life signature spell (page 496) as just one other example.

This 'rule' is also clear in our own army book with thing such as the Prayer Icon of Quenelles and Mane of the Purebreed.

Also, and most importantly, the wording of the description of the Virtue of the Ideal hints that the character himself is not effected by the leadership 'penalty' if you look closely enough. Where it says "any friendly unit (including other Knightly characters, or units using a Knight's Leadership)" is the important bit, more specifically "including other knightly characters". This word 'other' is the key I think, because it tells the reader that other models close to him suffer the penalty, others, but not himself.

Expressio unius est exclusio alterius

Lord Dryden

From a fluff standpoint, I would argue that the leadership ding does not affect the knight himself. The whole point is that, while the knight is an excellent warrior, others just inherently find something wrong with him. When Mousillon is discussed in the fiction (Brunner the Bounty Hunter is a good example), the knights there are always described as being above average warriors, yet there is always something slightly off-putting about them that makes others dislike them (maybe they're a little mad, supremely arrogant, overly cruel, threateningly mysterious, or have hidden mutations). The virtue represents this. The knight (a confident warrior) in and of himself would not be affected by his own oddities, but the individuals around him, including other knights, most definitely would and thus would not trust him as a leader despite his skills. That's what the fluff text in the rulebook kind of seems to imply as well. Landuin was great in all aspects but his progeny, they're a little touched...

I agree it's a little unclear, but from the fluff perspective, it would appear to me that the Knight isn't at -1 LD. The fluff gives the reason of other knights mistrusting him, while the knight himself is at the pinnacle of the prowess of a Bretonnian warrior. It would say something ablout the knight himself being cowardly or something otherwise.

While it would be nice to have a clear rule for these effects, other bubble effects don't mean a precedent is set ruleswise unless it's in the BRB, and usually the more modern variants state exactly who is and who isn't affected.

I suspect the intention when written was that it doesn't, but bubble effects are far common now and it appears to be a bit of an oddity.

I don't think the argument is whether the model is within/without 6" of itself, it's not a binary thing, it's about whether the model is affected by the rule, which is usually stated. What is quite odd is that it proceeds at length to state which other units are affected, it's in the army book and thus has plenty of room to state 'including the knight himself' somewhere, but doesn't.

In short, it needs an FAQ, the only arguments offered above are fluff or using other units as precedents, and neither really count for anything firm ruleswise when resolving these things.