Warhammer armies: Bretonnia - The Round Table of Bretonnia
Home
15. July 2014, 19:15 GMT

 

 
 

The Round Table
Home Home
Forums Forums
Gallery Gallery
Knights Knights
Chat Chat
Links Links
About / Help About / Help
Articles
News News
Events Events
Literature Literature
Tactics Tactics
Hobby Hobby
Background Background
User Login
Support us

Vote at the The Warvault: Warvault Webring
Vote for us at the Warvault.net Webring!

Support the maintenance and costs of running this site:

Statistics
Members: 16345
Articles: 630
Gallery Images: 4087
Web Links: 34
News Feeds
 
 
 
 

Welcome to the Round Table of Bretonnia!


bigletter: This is the meetingplace for all Bretonnian Generals in the Warhammer World. Come, and sit among peers at the Round Table, join the discussions, browse the growing library of articles or take a look at the masterpieces in the gallery!


Join now to take part in our community and the Heralds will know your name and Heraldry, it takes just a moment and all details you want can be filled in later.

You have no idea what this is all about? Then be sure to read the article "About this Homepage".


 

Musings on…the priesthoods of Bretonnia, part 5: Gazetteer of the Unified Church of Bretonnia PDF Print E-mail
User Rating: / 3
PoorBest 
Written by The Musing Minstrel   
Sunday, 16 February 2014
Article Index
Musings on…the priesthoods of Bretonnia, part 5: Gazetteer of the Unified Church of Bretonnia
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
Page 5

chat.pngWe are finally approaching the end of this series, and I plan to finish it in style. This article will contain over a heart-stopping 10000 words. I hope you are ready for the strain on your eyes, my lovely audience.

 

I'm going to do something different here. I'm going to pretend I'm writing chapters on the different faiths in the Unified Church of Bretonnia for WFRP supplemental material, such as the good work of Liber Fanatica. My reasons for that are that I want to fully develop and solidify the concept of the Unified Church. Both to create some background material that could be used in roleplay or tabletop games, and for my own amusement and sense of accomplishment. With each faith I will talk about the structure and organisation of the Bretonnian branch, their relations with the other cults, and write a bit of fluff; something to add flavour to the background of these cults and Bretonnia. Sometimes this will mean that I'll retread or repeat stuff I've already talked about, but I want to be thorough. Where I feel it's necessary to explain or rationalize what I've written down I'll give further arguments in parenthesis for it so as not to spoil the feel I'm going for here.

 

The Unified Church of Bretonnia

Background: Back before Unification, the priests of the Elder Gods, Taal and Rhya in particulair, were seen as the dominate faith in Bretonnia. The nature deities were uppermost in the daily lives of the Bretonni tribes. Things changed dramatically however with the appearance of the Lady of the Lake and her champions, Gilles le Breton and the Grail Companions. One by one each high priest of the Old World Gods was subjugated by the followers of the Grail. After the last of the twelve Great Battles was finished, the Matriarch of Shallya beseeched Le Breton to keep the peace in the kingdom he had just formed. Knowing that the majority of the populace still prayed to the Old World pantheon, he agreed and formed the Council of Couronne, an assembly of the spiritual leaders of Bretonnia. In turn all priests would accept the Lady of the Lake as the Queen of Heaven, the ruling Goddess of the Old World pantheon. For a time it was good for all parties involved, but then the Fay Enchantress appeared along with her Grail Damsels and the nationwide worship of the Lady. The cults now found themselves bested at every turn. The Damsels had more miraculous powers than even their mightiest prophets. Each Grail Knight was more capable than an entire regiment of templar knights. And by the priests' own words, the Lady of the Lake was superior to their own deities. Their funds and following flowed through their fingers like sand, resulting into them being forced to unite as one so that they could survive.

 

Organisation: Despite its name the Unified Church of Bretonnia isn't exactly a unified organisation. It is more of an alliance between the cults of the Old World Gods, enforced both by centuries of royal decrees and simple necessity, as the cults in Bretonnia no longer have the assets to operate on their own. They need to work together and pool resources, because the ruling class care little for the Gods of the Old World and their followers. As such it's not unusual to find temples dedicated to more than one deity or priests of different faiths working together on the same ceremony. The churchmen have to pay lip-service to the Lady of the Lake, as many nobles and not a few peasants ask that their prayers and rituals are dedicated to the Goddess of Chivalry. While Damsels are considered the true ‘priestesses' of the Cult of the Lady of the Lake, there aren't enough of them to preside over every wedding or funeral. Hence why the Unified Church gets enough funding to survive, but not flourish. Every so often a priest gets tired of praying to a mysterious Goddess not his own and goes rogue. The Church is always quick to condemn these apostates, for the alternative could mean royal censure on their beliefs.

 

Structure: Each of the cults is headed by a cardinal - or two in the case of the faith of Taal and Rhya - who together form the Council of Couronne. Again the name is not entirely true, since the Council is wherever the King resides. Dogma says this is done so the Council can advise the monarch on the will of the Gods, but in practice it's because the cardinals have many privileges at court which are key to collecting and maintaining donations from the ruling class. Beneath the cardinals are the archbishops and bishops, who are the leading high priests of Dukedoms, cities and other important domains. Under their guidance are the ordinary priests of the Church that operate much like their counterparts in the rest of the Old World, although far more poorer. Lower down on the totem pole we have the various monastic orders, who have managed to survive largely because many of their monasteries are either self-sufficient or provide useful services to the community such as a hospice or a school. Then there are the friars, wandering monks who travel back and forth to hamlets who don't have their own temple or priest and depend on the charity of others. It's the friars who the peasantry often have to turn to when it comes to hearing confessions and administering ceremonies, since in the land of chivalry there are many hamlets that are situated too far away from a normal temple, to say nothing of a fully ordained priest.

 

Militant branch: The Church as a whole cannot afford to maintain their own templar orders, which has resulted into the formation of the Palatine Guard. These red-clad men-at-arms are given to the cardinals by the royal court, and are sworn to serve and protect the cardinals with their very lives. Of course the cardinals are more often than not occupied at the royal court, insuring that a good portion of the Palatine Guard have to do nothing but look pretty for ceremonies and festivals. Other, savvier cardinals use their warriors to protect important temples or officials. Aside from the token of trust to local priests and the warning to possible thieves and vandals this gesture evidences, it also keeps the men-at-arms in shape and in some way prepared for an actual battle. (The Palatine Guard was the real name of a military unit of the Vatican, and they are clad in red both to associate them with the more well-known Swiss Guard and because of the earlier mentioned sumptuary laws concerning the three noble colours.)

 

Relations within and with the Church: The chapters of the Unified Church of Bretonnia can be broadly divided into three camps: the royalists, the workers and the seasonals. The priests of Shallya and Manann are the royalists, mainly because they're the only cults that are held in high regard by the nobility, feelings which these churchmen are more often than not happy to return. However, the difference between the two faiths prevents them from ever becoming a true power bloc. The workers are comprised by the Morrians and Verenans, named thusly because they do the work no-one else can or will do, i.e. burying people and tutoring children. Sometimes they side with the royalists, but this often hurts their cause. While the ruling class recognize that the cults of Morr and Verena provide important services, the nobles can do without their fatalistic reminders about mortality or lectures about oppressed peasants. The seasonals are formed by the priests of Taal, Rhya and Ulric. The name comes both from their intertwined traditions revolving around the seasons, and is also a snub for their fall from grace. While they do their best to work together, there's dissent between the urban and rural elements of the seasonals. The former sometimes support the royalist movement, while the latter are prone to talks of rebellion and returning Bretonnia to the time of the Church of Nature and Nurture from before Unification.

 

Aside from this divide between faiths, there's also a struggle between radical members of the urban and the rural priests of the kingdom as a whole. The clergy found in the cities and more well-off towns are more susceptible to corruption, because they have to confront daily with the lacklustre devotion of nobles and the attitudes and politics of merchants. The friars and the inhabitants of the more isolated temples and monasteries in turn are prone to talks of rebellion against the established order, and a return to the time where the Old World pantheon and its chosen disciples didn't have to bow down to a enigmatic Goddess that has female wizards as her representatives on earth. The two factions despise each other, but are at an impasse. The city clergy are too few in number to force the rustics to change their ways, but are more closely aligned with the corridors of power. Virtually every cardinal comes from a city temple, while the rural priests and the monastic orders have to do with what little they get from their superiors and the often lacking charity of the local lords and merchants.

 

The relations of the Unified Church with the other cults of the Old World are also less than stellar. Many believe the Bretonnian clergy are kowtowing to the nobility, and that the Unified Church is a slap in the face to the other branches of the cults of the Old World Gods. In the past there have been talks of the other nations declaring a crusade on Bretonnia and liberating them from the grasp of the Lady of the Lake. So far the power of the Grail Knights and Damsels has stopped every attempt. This has only worsened theological relations, since the righteous disdain for the Lady and her following has now been replaced by genuine fear. (The idea of three separate camps was done in a spur of the moment, but seems fitting to keep the Bretonnian faiths separate and disorganized. As for the relations with other cults, I like the idea of there being religious reasons for attacking other nations, and as I previously established it's logical that the priests of the Old World Gods in other nations wouldn't like that its members in Bretonnia now pay homage to the Lady.)

 

Fluff: The Nunnery of the Threefold Womanhood in the city of Bastonne is one of the oldest remaining monasteries in Bretonnia, dating from before Unification. The cynics could say this is simply because all the buildings from during or before Le Breton's time are preserved as monuments to his greatness. However, the fact that the abbey is devoted to three Goddesses in particular, and womanhood in general, plays a large part in it as well. The three Goddesses in question are Shallya the Healer, Rhya the Mother and Verena the Teacher. Women from all over the kingdom come here to dedicate themselves to the divine, for the nuns here are renowned for knowing the mind of the fairer sex like no other and warmly welcoming new devotees into their sisterhood. There are lurid tales about what the women exactly do when no men are looking, but these stories are outnumbered by those who describe in horrific detail what the nuns do with men they find trespassing. Indeed, the saying of "get thee to a nunnery!" is often used among the men of Bastonne as an exclamation of disbelief, as a man invading the sanctity of the Nunnery of the Threefold Womanhood would result in a fate worse than death. (I wanted to show a temple wherein separate faiths actively worked together, and a nunnery dedicated to basically the Warhammer-equivalent of the neo-pagan Triple Goddess - The Maiden, The Mother and The Crone - seemed appropriate to me.)

 


Last Updated ( Friday, 14 March 2014 )
 
Discuss (4 posts)
Musings on…the priesthoods of Bretonnia, part 5: Gazetteer of the Unified Church of Bretonnia Feb 22 2014 09:01
This thread discusses the Content article: Musings on…the priesthoods of Bretonnia, part 5: Gazetteer of the Unified Church of Bretonnia

This thread discusses the General Background article: Musings on...the priesthoods of Bretonnia, part 5: Gazetteer of the Unified Church of Bretonnia and also this five-part series as a whole which can be found in the General Background section

Well, ladies and gentlemen, here's the conclusion to my five-part series on the priesthoods of Bretonnia. For those just joining us, the fifth part is also a summary of what went before, so it isn't necessary to read the first four parts if you're not inclined.

More importantly, what do you think of my musings? An excellent piece on the worship of the Old World Gods in Bretonnia? Extremely useful for new ideas for your armies? Completely useless, or simply too long to read through it all? Whatever your opinion is, I eagerly await your comments.
Re:Musings on…the priesthoods of Bretonnia, part 5: Gazetteer of the Unified Church of Bretonnia Feb 22 2014 11:09
Warning: criticism ensues. I'll do my best to be constructive, point out what I like, and offer reasons for my disagreement as I go. Still, I hope you find the feedback useful.





I'm not a big fan, to be honest. For a while I think WHF authors have been staying away from the word 'church' and from ecclesiastical language, and your heavy use of that language feels off. WFRP1e and 2e both consistently use the term 'cult' in place of 'church' (so 'Cult of Sigmar', 'Cult of Shallya', and so on), presumably to maintain a pagan feel. Using explicitly Christian language feels off. I am more comfortable with it in the case of Sigmar, since the Cult/Church of Sigmar is the most blatant Christianity-analogue in the setting, but here I feel like you're introducing Christian overtones somewhere they don't really belong.

I understand that you could debate it somewhat, particularly as Bretonnia is heavily influenced by Arthurian mythology, which is of course passionately and devoutly Christian; but I would contend that ecclesiastical authorities are conspicuously absent in most Arthurian mythology. It feels unusual for there to be any strong church in an Arthurian story; and so it also feels odd for there to be a church in Bretonnia. You include cardinals, a Palatine Guard, and so forth, and... just, no. There should not be a visible Catholic Church analogue here.

So in that way I feel that the very premise of a 'Unified Church' of Bretonnia is misguided. The religious life of Bretonnia is dominated by the Cult of the Lady, by a series of other centralised Cults, and by folk tradition. There's no place there for some ecumenical church. The different Cults have nothing to gain from cooperation, and too many ideological differences for an alliance to really stick. It might help to remember that there is definitely no concept of separation of church and state here, and similarly there is no concept of 'a religion'. That's not how things work in a pagan world. There are a bunch of different gods, everyone accepts that they all exist, and you float back and forth between them as necessary. Cults devoted to specific gods tend to be esoteric and exclusionary.

Your premise here, as far as I can tell, is that Lady-worshippers and other-god-worshippers would have come into some sort of political or social conflict after Unification; but that's not the way this sort of religion works. They aren't different religions. No one who started worshipping the Lady stopped worshipping the other gods. Over time you might expect worship of the Lady to supplant worship of other gods, but only if there's some overlap between their areas of influence. Hence e.g. the rivalries between the Cults of Sigmar, Ulric, and Myrmidia in the Empire: they're all on some level about being a warrior or soldier, and you don't worship gods redundantly. The Lady is also perceived as a warrior-goddess, so people devoted to the Lady tend not to worship Sigmar, Ulric, or Myrmidia. (And this is indeed what we find: Sigmar and Ulric are hardly worshipped at all in Bretonnia, while Myrmidia is mostly restricted to peasants and foreign mercenaries.)

So my point is that there isn't a reason for the high priestess of Shallya or the high priest of Morr to feel threatened by the worship of the Lady. No one is going to worship the Lady instead of Shallya or Morr, and Lady-worshippers have no reason to be offended by worship of Shallya or Morr. So there's no impetus for this 'Unified Church'.

A few other random thoughts...

'In turn all priests would accept the Lady of the Lake as the Queen of Heaven, the ruling Goddess of the Old World pantheon.' Aren't you laying the Marian imagery on a bit thick?

'Each Grail Knight was more capable than an entire regiment of templar knights.' I think you're really overstating things there. If we're going to talk one-on-one... I don't know, the Inner Circle of the Knights of the White Wolf are pretty darn tough, you know? Grail Knights are extremely rare champions. I'm not convinced that Bretonnian knights as a whole are tougher than, say, Knights of the Blazing Sun, or that any given Grail Knight is bound to be hugely better than any champion the Blazing Sun could offer. Let's not even mention the Templars of Sigmar.

'There are lurid tales about what the women exactly do when no men are looking, but these stories are outnumbered by those who describe in horrific detail what the nuns do with men they find trespassing.' Seriously, man? You seriously thought that was a good idea?

'The Knights Hospitaller are warriors devoted to Shallya, which at first might seem like a oxymoron.' As with the Palatine Guard, I really think you're going too far with the Catholicism. Shallyans are not medieval Catholics.

'While I imagine that the nobles would want a few words dedicated to the Lady of the Lake in their last rites, the Cult of Morr is much like the Cult of Shallya in their views on politics.' This raises the question of just how relevant anyone would perceive the Lady as being to the question of the afterlife. It is pretty clear that people in the Old World think that all the gods goven their own afterlives

(e.g. the 'Legend of Sigmar' trilogy regularly talks about the Halls of Ulric; Morr guides the dead and ushers them to the afterlife, but he doesn't keep them all. If found worthy, the soul of the dead person goes to rest with some specific god. I believe there's also a passage in Liber Chaotica where Kless mentions expecting to find signs of afterlives dedicated to each of the gods of the Old World.)

Add in the Lady's association with the Otherworld and it seems beyond doubt that the Lady is imagined to have such a realm. From the AB, 'Gilles transcended from this earthly coil to an isle of bliss in the Otherworld, there to join the Lady herself for all eternity'. (Note that it says that Gilles actually died; unlike Arthur, he was not merely wounded and taken to the Otherworld for healing.)

The Bretonni/Bretonii (as it changes depending on source) appear to be descended from the same group of tribes as the Empire, so you might compare their ancient funeral rites to those of their brother tribes. In Heldenhammer, important rituals are carried out by the priests of multiple gods as necessary: Bjorn was buried in a ceremony where both priests of Morr and priests of Ulric played important roles. The problem is that the Lady has no priests, and neither Damsels nor Grail Knights do this sort of thing. The Lady does not have temples and she is not worshipped in a regular, cultic way. My feeling would be that the nobility as a whole are meant to be the representatives of the Lady, and so the highest ranking noble available would tend to officiate at a noble funeral (and he would traditionally defer to Grail Knights or Damsels if they are present and willing; I suspect Damsels would usually not be willing).

'With this in mind, it appeared to me that the Cult of Verena would either be outcast in Bretonnia, or would else be unorthodox in its teachings in the land of chivalry. I've chosen the latter, since I find the idea of a holy institution devoted to the ideal of justice having to betray its own tenets simply fascinating.' Are you familiar with the note in KotG that many Herrimaults consider Verena their patron? She's a deity of justice who is conspicuously impartial and doesn't care about social status or birth, so I think it's safe to say the nobility isn't very keen on her; but non-nobles interested in justice might find a lot to like.

'The Cult of Taal and Rhya in Bretonnia has changed dramatically since Unification. It used to reign supreme over the land as the Church of Nature and Nurture, which provided everything the Bretonni tribes needed.' I think what you do with Taal and Rhya depends heavily on what you think Bretonni beliefs were like pre-Unification. If you think they worshipped some sort of proto-Lady back then, but in a more general sense, as a deity of the land, then there wouldn't seem to be much need for these two. I'd be happy saying that Taal and Rhya are actually relative newcomers to Bretonnia, and are still to an extent thought of as foreign, Imperial gods. As the Lady gradually transitioned to a deity of nobility and chivalry, Rhya could easily swoop in and fill her old role.

'The Bretonnian cultists of the White Wolf are a sourly lot.' I actually don't think there'd be any serious Cult of Ulric in Bretonnia at all. Too Imperial; and as a god of the warrior ideal, he has been thoroughly supplanted by the Lady. You might get a handful of expatriates, or particularly adventurous or cosmopolitan knights who've gotten sick of the Lady making prayers to him, but for the most part I'd just say that Ulric is not worshipped in Bretonnia. To the extent that Ulric is worshipped, it'll be as a seasonal deity, not a warrior deity. I think you get that much right. I'd actually rename him a bit as well. 'Ulric' is too blatantly Germanic a name, and gods are worshipped under different names everywhere. (e.g. Handrich/Haendryk, that sort of thing.)

'Valle Gévaudan is one of the few communities where the inhabitants, including the ruling lord, almost exclusively worship Ulric.' Haha, cute. Silly, but cute.

'Aside from the merchant-priests of Ranald, there's also a radical sect which worships the Trickster in one of his more savage aspects, namely as Reynard the Red Fox.' This bit is a really good idea, though. I like it.

'The monastic orders of the Grail are not an organized institution, nor are they a part of the Unified Church of Bretonnia. They are completely separate from any authority, although they do see the will of Grail Knights and Damsels as sacrosanct. In fact, many orders are founded to serve one of these champions of the Lady while in life, and preserve their remains in death.' Replacing battle pilgrims with something a little less stupid? Good move, though I would stay away from such an explicit monastic tradition. Again, Bretonnians aren't Catholics.

Anyway, having said all that, concluding thoughts...

I think you have a bunch of good ideas, but I think that the basic framework you've used for thinking about Bretonnian religion is wrong-headed. Much too Christian, much too Catholic, and I strongly disagree with the idea of a 'Unified Church'.

There are a bunch of little copy-editing things as well, but for the most part it's reasonably good, so I won't harp on that too much.

So, yeah, I don't like your overall approach, but I like some of the details. I would nick bits and pieces for a WFRP game, but as an edifice, I'm not a fan.

Anyway, I suppose I might skim your first four parts later. We shall see!
Re:Musings on…the priesthoods of Bretonnia, part 5: Gazetteer of the Unified Church of Bretonnia Feb 23 2014 12:31
I must admit I was taken aback by how much Christian overtones I used in the end, and it took your comments to make me see that. Rest assured that this wasn't my intention. I used the word 'church' because quite frankly there aren't that many words to describe religious institutions. Unlike with 'temple', where you can use words like 'shrine', 'sanctuary', 'chapel' and more without getting a particular real-life religion involved, but I wanted a word which would say 'this is a religious organization', and something like 'Unified Cult' sounded a bit silly to my ears. You're right, of course; the religions of Warhammer Fantasy should not be stand-ins for real-life religions, for that can lead into messy debates into a hobby that's essentially about playing with plastic soldiers.

While I admit your point about that the followers of the gods would pray to more than one deity, and switch between as the situation requires it, I don't see the priests and the truly devout acting the same way. These fanatics have devoted themselves to a single deity, and as this is the grim world of perilous adventure that is Warhammer I don't see all of them casually accepting that other gods could be better than their own. We have already seen many instances where the cults of different gods go against each other. Tome of Salvation alone has an entire chapter called 'Extremes of Faith', which goes into great detail about fanatics of various faiths who believe their own god (and his/her loyal followers of course) reigns or should reign supreme. There's 'The Dyke', who believe a enormous flood will wash away the corrupt and leave the chosen of Manann to repopulate the earth, the Remean and Magrittan factions of the cult of Myrmiddia who believe that their goddess came from Tilea or Estalia respectively and that the other nation should bow down to them, and there are Sigmarites who believe that Sigmar is in fact the only deity, and that all other cults worship Chaos gods in disguise. The WFRP2 adventure Ashes of Middenheim is about the tensions between the Ulrican and Sigmarite faiths, the novel Sacred Flesh by Robin D. Laws has a priest of Sigmar and his men who have taken over a temple of Shallya against the will of the nuns there, the WFRP2 sourcebook Realm of the Ice Queen has the cults of Taal and Ulric trying to convert Kislevites to their own gods.
Long story short (too late), for all of the polytheism of the Old World religions, for many people, especially those who make it their career, there will always be one god you prefer over all others.

FVC wrote:
'There are lurid tales about what the women exactly do when no men are looking, but these stories are outnumbered by those who describe in horrific detail what the nuns do with men they find trespassing.' Seriously, man? You seriously thought that was a good idea?
It might be strange to point this one out, but I am genuinely confused what exactly your issue is with this. Is it about the notion that there's sex in Warhammer Fantasy? We have half-naked elves, seductive vampires and a veritable Chaos god of pleasure with armies of pleasure-loving daemons and cultists.
Is it about the idea of men being punished or tortured by women? Because we have seen that before in Tome of Salvation concerning the rites of initiates of Rhya:
"The initiation is shrouded in mystery, particularly among men, whose fathers whisper lurid rumours of blood sacrifices, moon worship, and stranger events. Men are strictly forbidden from witnessing these rites and most go out of their way to avoid doing out of abject fear - it is believed that a man who stumbles into this initiation loses his potency. Others believe the man loses much more than that..." - page 63
And last but not least, I never say that this actually happens. This is what the men like to think what happens. There's a world of difference between rumour and fact.

FVC wrote:
'With this in mind, it appeared to me that the Cult of Verena would either be outcast in Bretonnia, or would else be unorthodox in its teachings in the land of chivalry. I've chosen the latter, since I find the idea of a holy institution devoted to the ideal of justice having to betray its own tenets simply fascinating.' Are you familiar with the note in KotG that many Herrimaults consider Verena their patron? She's a deity of justice who is conspicuously impartial and doesn't care about social status or birth, so I think it's safe to say the nobility isn't very keen on her; but non-nobles interested in justice might find a lot to like.
I'm indeed familiar with that note, but the fact that Verena is a goddess of justice doesn't mean that all of her followers worship her in that aspect. I hate to keep repeating myself here, but Tome of Salvation points out that in all cults there are sects who worship their deity in different ways, such as the different aspects of Ranald or how Morr is both god of the dead and the god of dreams. Besides, Herrimaults are outlaws, and wouldn't have much impact on national politics in my mind.

FVC wrote:
There are a bunch of little copy-editing things as well, but for the most part it's reasonably good, so I won't harp on that too much.
Would you mind telling me where you found these copy-editing mistakes? I'm not calling you a liar, it's just that after so much time writing this series I want to know all that I did wrong so I can do better in the future.

I thoroughly encourage you to read the first four parts, since their you can find my arguments for why I made the decisions that I did.
Re:Musings on…the priesthoods of Bretonnia, part 5: Gazetteer of the Unified Church of Bretonnia Feb 23 2014 21:14
I must admit I was taken aback by how much Christian overtones I used in the end, and it took your comments to make me see that.

Mrm. It occurs in a lot of fantasy, I suspect partly because the religion most Western fantasy authors are aware of is Christianity, so it's their go-to model for what a religion looks like, and partly because a lot of fantasy is designed to resemble medieval Europe. It's impossible to understand medieval Europe without understanding medieval Christianity, and you can't take Christianity out without radically changing the society.

So my experience is that there's a lot of fantasy set in a vague quasi-Europe, dominated by a vague quasi-Christianity. Often it's very weak. One of the reasons I like the Banestorm setting so much is because they used actual Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc., in the appropriate regions. (The premise of that game is people abducted from Earth back in the 1200s or so, who settled a magical world. They took their religions with them.) It treated each religion thoughtfully and fairly, and it gave the setting a lot of depth. No invented religion can ever be quite as complex and intriguing as a real one!

In any case, since the Old World of WHF is even more closely patterned on Europe than other fantasy settings, the Christianity issue is particularly strong. For the most part I just shrug and accept that Sigmar's faith is the Christianity-analogue. It's not, really, and I can't help but think that the Cult of Sigmar is essentially Positive Christianity: more militant, emphasis on racial unity and beating up lesser races, messiah is conveniently a blonde blue-eyed white man, all that awkward stuff about forgiveness and repentance and loving your enemy is removed, and so on. (Okay, Heldenhammer says that Sigmar actually had heterochromia, but one blue and one green is still technically blue-eyed.)

Bretonnia is difficult because it's so Arthurian, and Arthurian mythology is so utterly Christian. You can remove the Christian parts and speculate about pagan proto-Arthuriana, but it doesn't particularly resemble the mythology we all know. How can we resolve the clash between what Bretonnia wants to be (Arthurian, Christian, etc.) and what the setting says it is? I mean, the core convictions of knighthood are patterned on European chivalry, and the ideals of chivalry are deeply affected by Christianity. (The moral obligation to defend and protect the weak comes from Christian ethics, knightly courtesy is associated with religious ideals of humility, courtly love is connected with the religious exaltation of monogamous marriage, and so on. These ideas didn't come out of nowhere.) It's awfully convenient that the Bretonni came up with all the same ideas despite a radically different cultural background, isn't it?

If I was going to go into the setting, rip up its metaphorical floorboards, and rebuild it from the ground up, I might be tempted to tackle that question, either by making Bretonnian knighthood less Arthurian and less chivalric, or by giving Bretonnia a stronger quasi-Christianity. You could de-emphasise it in the Empire (making Sigmar more like the deified Caesar, or even likes Mithras), make Bretonnia actually monotheistic, and change a lot of its early religious history. That's probably further than you want to go, though.

I guess for now we might just stick with the 'canon', and have a Bretonnia that is supposedly and institutionally pagan, but ideologically Christian.

While I admit your point about that the followers of the gods would pray to more than one deity, and switch between as the situation requires it, I don't see the priests and the truly devout acting the same way. These fanatics have devoted themselves to a single deity, and as this is the grim world of perilous adventure that is Warhammer I don't see all of them casually accepting that other gods could be better than their own.

I don't think it's a question of 'better', but of relevance. I imagine even the high priestess of Shallya makes an offering to Manann before a naval voyage. That's not an insult to Shallya. Shallya just doesn't do that.

Tome of Salvation does indeed talk a lot about fanatics, but I would note that they are fanatics, and not representative of the average believer. There are certainly religious tensions and followers of the gods get embroiled in politics (re: Ulric or Sigmar?); I'm just wary of thinking as if each god has a different religion. They don't.

It might be strange to point this one out, but I am genuinely confused what exactly your issue is with this. Is it about the notion that there's sex in Warhammer Fantasy? We have half-naked elves, seductive vampires and a veritable Chaos god of pleasure with armies of pleasure-loving daemons and cultists.

How many medieval writers speculated about nunneries in those terms? Either in terms of fetishised lesbianism or in terms of tearing apart men like in the Bacchae?

The thing is, it's actually rather problematic to fetishise an all-female group in this way. That's not a medieval stereotype of nuns at all, and the fetishisation of lesbianism is very much a quirk of modern culture. Importing it into a medieval setting is anachronistic and forced, and is sort of offensive to nuns, lesbians, and women in general. Western culture at the moment sometimes portrays women as the 'sex class', if that makes sense. When the discussion of a group consisting entirely of women starts with sex... ugh, it's just unfortunately.

Sorry, I don't want to go on a big feminist rant here, but it's just tasteless and juvenile.

Would you mind telling me where you found these copy-editing mistakes? I'm not calling you a liar, it's just that after so much time writing this series I want to know all that I did wrong so I can do better in the future.

I didn't keep a list. Nothing major. For instance, in one of the bits I quoted above, you wrote that Bretonnian followers of Ulric 'are a sourly lot'. Shouldn't that be 'sour lot'? That sort of thing.


Discuss this item on the forums. (4 posts)
Next >
 
 

Latest forum posts
Sponsored Links
Latest Articles
Current Polls
What is your favourite magic lore?
 
Online Users

There are 33 guests online.
 
 
 

Warhammer, Warmaster, Games Workshop (and more) are registered trademarks of Games Workshop Ltd. This site is not affiliated with Games Workshop Ltd. and no claim of ownership is made to any of these trademarks.
Design by Earl Cadfael and Guillaume le Courageux, responsible for the content (Admins) are: Etien de Rochefort, Guillaume le Courageux, Robert de Giselles (see "Staff").